Doc-t
Forum Replies Created
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Hi @Kerry – What is a “mug?”
The minimum amount is 1 pound of Soybean Meal (SBM) (measured on a scale) daily for a 1200-pound horse. That’s 454g SBM for a 545kg horse. This assumes feeding forage (pasture and hay) at about 1.5% to 2.0% body weight (average at 1.75%) and roughly 10% protein. Of course, you can’t measure the amount of pasture they eat, and the protein of hay and pasture varies, but if the horse is losing body fat coming out of winter, carefully increase the hay to add the sugar and fat needed to add body fat.
Each pound of SBM has about 175g of absorbed protein, and each pound of 10% protein forage has about 23g of absorbed protein. Feeding 1.75% of 1200 pounds in forage (21 pounds) means the total forage protein will be 483g. 483 + 175 = 658g of total protein.
I chose 1200 pounds because it is so divisible: 100, 200, 300, 400, and 600, or any combination, such as 700, 800, 900, 1000, etc. So, if your horse weighs 800 pounds, feed 2/3rds (0.67) of the above numbers: 14.1 pounds of forage and 0.67 pounds of SBM.
The goal is to feed 0.5 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight. Therefore, a 1200-pound horse would need between 600 and 1200g of protein daily. Feeding 1 pound of SBM plus 21 pounds of forage will fulfill the minimum requirement of 600g.
You can add more SBM and remain within the recommended goal. For example, if the 1200-pound horse still eats 21 pounds of forage but eats 2 pounds of SBM, the total will be 833g; with 3 pounds of SBM, the total will be 1008g. These are all within the accepted range. Only 1 pound of SBM per feeding is recommended (based on human literature converted to the size of horses), with 3 to 4 hours between feedings.
26-year-old horses often show more fat and muscle loss coming out of winter than younger horses. Adding hay and increasing SBM now will help turn this around. Caution is needed as the grass grows because the horse may become too fat. This is because he is eating more sugar than is required, which may cause him to convert added protein into sugar – a paradox I have discussed in podcasts, etc. Therefore, as he gains body condition through the summer, reduce the hay until the grass stops growing (late fall). Then, add back enough hay to maintain his condition through the winter. Keep the SBM volume high until his muscle returns and his hooves and hair look great. Then, you can reduce the SBM to the minimum amount, which you may find is 1 pound twice daily.
Your aim is to keep the horse with enough body fat and muscle to remain healthy. Each horse is different, and with age comes more difficulty in doing this. Constant adjustments are required as the seasons change. However, increasing the amount of SBM you feed is an excellent way to maintain the muscles he needs to thrive at his age. Doc T
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Thanks for this recipe – It’s about 1/3 the cost, correct?
The images you sent show a moderate amount of disease but slight inflammation. The results are more profound when the gums are red, the teeth are painful, and you see the red dots on the gums.
It is also important to emphasize the probable cause as grain (the lectins of the grain hulls are causing a leaky gut and an autoimmune reaction of the underlying bone). So, in addition to adding the mushrooms, the grain and grain byproducts must also be removed. I don’t know if the mushrooms can be stopped after the horse is converted to an all-forage diet. However, most owners continue using the treatment after removing the cause.
Thanks again for this info! Would you allow me to post this for the public?
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Thank you, @Kerry , for listening to the replay!
Caroline has a British accent, but she lives in Texas! She was getting SBM but bugs were growing in it. So I don’t think she needs this address. However, I want to thank you for suggesting this. You are so kind!. Doc T
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This is a great question for tonight’s Rounds With Doc T.
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We hope to see you tonight. The link was sent again today. As always, the link is in the post here in this forum that Matt set up earlier this week. See you soon! Doc T
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@Carol This question opens several questions. The first is, what is weight? The word includes body fat, muscle, bone, water, and other things that can be weighed. I sound a bit fussy here, but if the horse loses body fat during a long distance trip and exposes lost muscle, that is a different problem than just body fat.
Other questions include his age, any other stressors such as a new farm or new horses next to him, an increased work load, and colder than expected weather.
But despite these seemingly silly questions, the fact that a horse on 3 pounds SBM plus 3 pounds Coolstance loses any condition is alarming. It is understandable losing some water weight, body fat, and even some muscle over a 2 to 3 day road trip, but this should return quickly as you noted.
Loss of body fat occurs when the calories consumed is less than the calories needed to maintain the weight. The equation is: calories in = calories out.
However, the other factors affecting how many calories are needed and how they are used must be added to this equation. Calories in x (factors affecting absorption) = calories out x (factors affecting metabolism).
Assuming the calories have remained the same and the work load is the same (calories out), then the problem lies in the factors. The simple solution is to add more food that doesn’t inflame the body. I usually recommend cleaned (dehulled) oats (aka Racehorse Oats). This will add the needed calories in the form of excess sugar (starch) to put on body fat without adding the inflammatory effects of byproducts and other unnecessary ingredients.
Of interest, though, is discovering why your horse has not been able to regain the lost weight in shipping. The easiest answer would be increased cortisol. Another would be the barn isn’t feeding him what you think he’s getting (I’m saying this for a complete analysis and may not be specific for your case). More complex reasons would include a metabolic change such as a low grade infection in the lungs or chronic pain he isn’t showing. To determine why he hasn’t gained back the weight will require a thorough investigation by you and your vet.
The Laws of Thermodynamics is the rule. Look for the obvious (not being fed, increased work load, lack of appetite, no available edible pasture, etc). Then look for the subtle (stressors such as a new horse, bad barn help, cold winds, painful tack, uncomfortable stall, lack of good and safe sleep, etc). Finally, look for a medical reason (low grade shipping fever/pneumonia, any other infection). Your vet can help with this.
I know this was long winded, but I’m answering to cover so many possibilities for all who will read this. I’m grateful you are feeding your horse to prevent inflammation and increase high-quality protein intake. Feeding Coolstance as a fat source of calories helps many, especially older horses. But in athletes, sometimes an increase in glucose to replace lost glycogen during physical activity, especially in horses with increased muscle mass with its increased glycogen stores, may be all that is going on here.
PS – I will be having my live Rounds With Doc T on Thursday, January 4th at 8pm Eastern time. This would be an excellent question for that. Doc T
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2% of 650kg (1433 pound) body weight = 13kg of forage (pasture and hay).
Let’s assume the hay is 10% protein. 10% of 13kg = 1.3 kg of protein. But only half of that protein is absorbed by the horse, so the absorbed protein = half of 1.3kg = .65kg, or 650mg.
The daily protein range is 1.1 to 2.2 g per kg, so a 650kg horse needs 715g to 1430g daily. The hay and pasture provide less than the minimum amount; it must be remembered that limited forage does not have a complete amino acid profile, so several amino acids will be missing.
1 pound of soybean meal (SBM), or 454g, yields 174g of high-quality protein with all the amino acids (I’ve done the math for this elsewhere). Adding this to the hay ration will yield 650g + 174g = 824g total protein.
Your question is about how much SBM you could maximally feed your 650kg horse daily. To find this, take the maximum amount of total protein allowed (1430g) and subtract the protein from forage (650g), which is 780g. If 454g of SBM yields 174 g of absorbed protein, then 780 / 174 = about 4.5. Therefore, you could feed a maximum of 4.5 x 454g of SBM = about 2kg or 4 pounds daily.
From what I’ve been learning about protein in humans and its effect on building muscle, increasing the quantity of a broad spectrum amino acid profile protein at the maximum amount will trigger muscle development as long as it is fed as a whole food (not a protein shake). Non-meat eaters (vegetarians, horses) may be different. No one knows for sure, but adding exercise to a high quantity of daily protein, especially resistance training, will develop muscle.
Watch his body fat for the summer with the increased sugar in the pasture and new hay. The extra protein may also cause increased body fat if the total sugar consumption exceeds his needs. I hope all this math helps you.
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Thanks! 🤠
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LOL – time zones!!! Replay coming tonight!
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I think you’ll have some stories to tell! I would love to hear them. Doc T
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I can cover anything we want to discuss. This includes how to easily back up a trailer and place it perfectly on a dime! I will also cover the tests required, how to prepare the horse “medically,” to wrap or not to wrap (and if you do wrap, understand why and how), and anything else that comes up.
In other words, I’ll cover the horse and the driver/driving (braking, curves, backing, etc).
During my undergraduate school days, I hauled horses for a living for a professional outfit in tractor-trailers. Flying was just “getting off the ground” back then.
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“I haul my horse loose on the back of my gooseneck and the carriage in the front. Is it best to tie or let them be loose?” Do you mean that the horse is in the back of the trailer in a box stall? Is there a wall between the carriage and the horse?
Please reply with a more precise description of your setup. Also, are the trailer wheels under the horse? Are the trailer wheels set outside of the interior, or is there a wheel box inside where the horse will be?
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🤠👍
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Thank you for referring this site to others. One at a time, we will help all horses.
Don’t beat yourself up about the CA SBM. They will get theirs in the end 😇.
Mares will conceive better if they are on an “increasing plane of nutrition,” as my professor called it. However, overfeeding a mare nursing and/or carrying a foal is the same as overfeeding the foal. It is an art form to feed mares, and each responds differently. I will do a podcast soon on breeding and foaling.
The other, “Doc T.”
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It was fun, with great questions!
The video replay, along with the timestamps for the questions, are now posted.
The book I mentioned is also in the video replay (through the magic of editing). It is called “Brain Energy” by Christopher Palmer, MD.
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I had a chance to watch this video. The first thought is that he will get kicked! I have seen horses become distraught and “unglued” with hind gut inflammation – worse than the last horse. Please be careful and stand by the shoulder and face the rear and have someone control the hear. Remember Law 1 – a horse can kill you, and Law 2 – the horse that will kill you is your own (Please read The Ten Irrefutable Laws Of Horsemanship included with your membership).
My second thought is that he is completely correct in that the horse will show discomfort to palpating these areas with hind gut inflammation, along with “bad behavior” and an unwillingness in all areas involving movement (riding, loading on a trailer).
Omeprazole is called Prilosec in the human form in America. While changing the pH of the stomach to a less acidic environment, this secondarily changes the pH of everything distal to the stomach. In turn, by reducing the acid, the microbiome is changed. Unless the base cause of the acidic environment is changed by improving the diet, the acidic pH will return.
I agree with removing molasses and all grain to reduce the intake of sugar; however, remember that hay is also loaded with free sugar and starch. Soaking the hay and limiting the feeding of hay to a 12 hour window will also improve the pH of the gut, and therefore the gut microbiome. Finally, there are many inflammatory ingredients in the grain mixes and the ration balancers as well as many supplements. It is best to remove all of these until the gut heals. Then, if needed to add body fat, stay with de-hulled oats (cleaned oats). If eating “processed foods” is avoided by humans for better health, it should also be avoided by our horses.
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Soybean meal (SBM) is a legume grain, not a cereal grain higher in sugar like oats, wheat, and others from grasses. I believe that much of the inflammation in the gastrointestinal tract is from the lectins in the hulls of grains. These are proteins developed by plants to cause harm to animals, so they stop eating their seeds. Search for lectins on this site for more information on this. Also, if you haven’t already, take the nutrition course included in the membership.
SBM removes the hulls when making the meal and should not have inflammatory lectins. However, SBM has all the essential amino acids needed to repair and build muscle, the immune, nervous, and hormone systems, and the integument (hooves and hair).
The best test for ulcers, especially hind gut ulcers, is a test for fecal blood proteins. Your vet can perform this simple stall-side test (Succeed makes this test). Of course, a positive response to Gastroguard will also prove the stomach has ulcers, but as a medicine, it won’t remove the cause. This is why so many vets now recommend removing all grains and grain byproducts.
In addition to the lectins is dysbiosis (an altered normal gut microbiome) caused by the lectins plus the high amount of sugar being fed. When hay is fed 24/7, the horse never has downtime for gut repair. So, removing grain is essential, but feeding only 1.5 to 2.0% of their body weight in forage (pasture plus hay) is also important to reduce sugar intake. While some horses lose body fat with reduced hay intake, exposing the lost underlying muscle, they will become happier overall as the subtle gut pain disappears. After the gut heals (about 2 to 6 weeks for most), adding some extra hay will help him restore body fat. This should be done carefully so the ulcers and excess body fat don’t return. I have seen hard keepers (thin horses on lots of hay and grain) gain body weight once all grain and grain byproducts (found in grain mixes and “balancers”) are removed.
Stress is additive, too. An inflamed gut plus age plus shipping can all lead to a horse not feeling well with weight loss. The good news is that shipping stress can become easier for your horse with patience (time) and removing inflammatory foods. I’m glad you’ve caught this in time and are searching for answers. Keep us posted!
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Start with a pound of oats.
It seems like there have been changes in his routine, including hock injections (this involved sedation, which may have stressed the gut microbiome). Another stress was you leaving for 10 days if he likes you and expected you to stabilize his life in the “new barn.”
If he perks up with you being present and the time from the last sedation increases, then all should improve, with or without the added calories of grain.
Please let us know what happens as time goes on. Doc T
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🤠👍🎄
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No worries, @Wren because no one showed up. We had sent out reminders, but maybe they didn’t work as planned, or it’s just too busy for everyone this time of year. Either way, we are moving the next Rounds to January. Doc T