Reaction to higher protein Soya

[DinahC]

        24hr update.

Praline didn’t rub at all during the day yesterday. Came in from pasture to her night shelter /camp with no new rubs anywhere. I reduced the amount of SBM but wasn’t able to weigh it, but just tipped a bit out. She also had a reduced amount SBM this morning. Checked her about 9h30 and can see she’s rubbed her shoulder, poll and sides of her face again. Clearly done during the night.

I can only attribute this to the 47% sbm as she’s pretty used to the rest of the diet and the fasting routine through the night. My yard manager thinks I’m nuts feeding this diet and I’m concerned she’s going to ask me to move my horse…. Which I really don’t want to do as she has the pasture which i so dearly need. I’m needing guidance… Should i try a FFS and SBM blend. I do really want her on the SBM because she’s already regarded arthritic and I am not convinced that she truly is but rather the result of inflammatory ingredients that she’s consumed all these years.

I’m at my wits end. I really just want a simple horse now!

[KarenM]

That sounds frustrating. I haven’t had any issues with low fat, de-hulled soybean meal (47-48% protein). I have a horse that is highly sensitive and easily stressed, although he does not have skin issues. I have to be very careful about what he eats, and the least little disruption to his routine or environment causes behavior changes. He did poorly on regular concentrate feed. I had to tweak the soybean meal protocol to address some things particular to my horse (done after extensive exams and testing.) I briefly tried feeding hemp meal when it was difficult to find the sbm. I saw no difference other than to my wallet. It was substantially more expensive although the feeding rate was less. I’ve heard from independent sources, in addition to Dr Tucker, that a horse is more likely to be affected by the oil and the hulls than plain heat treated soybean meal without fat or hulls.

You mentioned environmental stressors. Could it be something your horse is in contact with? Is another horse causing stress? Are there midges or other “bugs” that could be bothering her? Could it be threadworms? I had a mare who rubbed her neck a lot when I first got her. I had to worm with a specific product and that completely resolved the issue. What kind of bedding or other material is in your horse’s shelter? What has your vet said?

A friend’s Appaloosa mare had unexplained problems with her skin and behavior. Her vet finally suggested allergy testing (not a hair test) after unsuccessfully trying everything else and they were able to isolate what they thought caused the problems. Once those were removed (I think certain hay was the main issue), the symptoms she exhibited subsided but did not completely disappear. Best of luck. I hope you get it figured out.

[AngelaM]

My farrier says his horse is allergic to soy. Can you try the hemp meal, is it available to you?

[DinahC]

Next 24hr update….

I made a blend of 120g x47% and 60g x35% for am/pm. This calcs to 43% protein and 13.8%fat. I feel the protein is still a good quantity but the fat is still much higher than I would like.

On checking her this morning, only 1 area rubbed just below the TMJ on the R. All other previously rubbed areas were not noticeably affected. She went out to pasture for the day and came in without appearing to have rubbed anywhere.

@KarenM…. Thanks for all the suggestions as to other things to consider. Regarding neck thread worm(NTW) – I do regard her as having NTW. Probably inflicted with it when she was 2-3 yrs old. When I realized what it most likely was, i started the course of extensive ivermectin treatments and have kept it up on a 3 monthly basis. I have read extensively about how others have treated a couple of times and it’s all been resolved. This just hasn’t been the case for me so i have continued to look for answers, all the while deworming just in case it really is NTW. Within the year of considering it as NTW, I called a vet for a biopsy establish if it truly is NTW. The vet’s diagnosis…. Allergy to fly bite saliva. This diagnosis did little to build my confidence in my vet as I was aware there will be fly saliva in the wounds as they suck the blood.

As for bedding… For years I stabled Praline. In Sept 2017, I moved her to a live out lifestyle. She briefly was stabled again from Sept 2020 to March 2021. It was during this time that I realized she is allergic/intolerant to pine wood shavings. Since then, i have ensured only sand be used for her bedding. That has certainly improved the sores on her legs.

Environmental issues re fly control…. I have used fly sheets, leggings, face masks and still she rubbed and itched. The use of flysprays deterred the flys setting on her but many have an adverse on her skin so i use very limited. I have recently stopped as trying to get her holobiome right.

Other environmental issues which have resulted in high anxiety was a chance up-rooting of a huge blue gum tree with a divided trunk. In Nov 2019, it up rooted and fell, crashing both shelters in their night camp at 1h00. This caused huge noise associated anxiety for ages and I learnt just last week that the sound of a tree falling is still extremely stressful for her. I say this as I tried to lead her in hand and she would have none or it. So I tacked up and walked her out and she was absolutely quacking under me. So at this point, I’m thinking the rubbing could be anxiety related. There has also been a change in the herd with a new horse arriving so that’s also raised her anxiety levels, so as of yesterday morning, I put her back on her anxiety tissue salts. Something I didn’t want to do as I am trying to “cleanse” her body so the right equibiome can re-establish itself.

@AngelaM ….thank you for the interesting suggestion from your farrier re being allergic to the SBM. I had a horse years ago that was allergic to soya. The response was completely opposite to Praline’s so not feeling completely convinced that she is allergic. Maybe she can’t handle the high percentage of protein in soya but definitely seen huge +ve changes will have to research where I can find hemp meal in my town.

So at this point, my gut feeling is anxiety and otherwise the higher protein levels. I can only play with the quantity of SBM I feed/day and keep her on the anxiety meds and hope all the stress factors subside fast!

[AngelaM]

Are you familiar with the polyvagal theory? It’s interesting and a working knowledge of it can be helpful with working with our horses (an for ourselves too). I wish you well on your quest to help Praline-sounds like a tough case.

[DinahC]

@AngelaM….I haven’t heard of the Polyvagal Theory as such. Have just done a quick read of it now and yes, I agree, a good working knowledge of this is essential for me to be able to help Praline through this next stage. I have some knowledge of SNS and PNS but clearly there’s much more to learn 😉 So thanks for the lead.

Just an update on the past 24hrs. Feeding 180g x47% am/pm, pasture in the day and alfalfa at night with free access to salt lick at night and fresh water but with anxiety meds added, she has not rubbed at all. She’s definitely a little flatter than I would like, but she has energy when asked to work so that’s perfect. I do believe the plain straight soya is working for her so now to gradually increase the quantity till I feel she’s getting adequate amount and hopefully won’t start rubbing! I took her for a hack this evening and she checked every fallen tree, (and there are lots as I’m in a forest environment), with extreme caution before proceeding!

If anyone else feels they know something I might benefit by knowing about, please feel free to share. I’m on a quest to help Praline be the horse she was always meant to be.

[AngelaM]

It’s explained pretty well in “Accessing the healing power of the vagus nerve” by Stanley Rosenberg. It’s only human, not equine but horses have the same cranial nerves as people. Warwick Schiller talks about it a lot on his podcasts with respect to humans and horses.

[DinahC]

@AngelaM Thank you….. I’ve some homework for the weekend now!…

[Doc-t]

I’ve been delayed with updating the web site (anyone notice?) and now driving 1200 miles (1931km) to the very cold north to work on horse teeth. My apologies for the delay on this – and there is a lot to discuss here!

Soy, soya and soybeans are not soybean meal. We need to establish the use of SBM because of the confusion caused by interchanging these words. For example, the farrier mentioned that his horse was allergic to “soy” which is not SBM. With the hulls and oil removed there are less allergens (antigens) to form an allergic response. In addition, soybeans are a legume and horses are better with legumes (alfalfa, peanuts, soybeans) than humans. It is the lectins of legumes that cause the problems in humans and lectins are usually in the hulls.

You mentioned that the SBM (de-hulled and de-fatted) “is only steamed.” Steaming is required of ALL SBM to denature an enzyme called trypsin inhibitor. Steaming is also called “toasting” for some reason. If this enzyme is not denatured then it will prevent the horse from breaking down the protein in the gut into peptides and amino acids. The result is that no amino acids will be absorbed through the gut wall.

Here are your 2 questions:

Q1 – Could Praline be having a more significant reaction to the high protein content? Clearly feeding a 47% compared to a 35% protein has provided more. Should I reduce the quantity soya so she’s taking in the same quantity of protein as she was with the FFS. >>>No – see the math to follow.

You fed 450g of the full fat SBM at 35% = 157.5g

You fed 225g of the SBM at 47% = 105.75g. So you are already reducing the total protein. The goal is to feed good quality (hay / pasture) and high quality (SBM) protein to achieve a total of 0.5 to 1.0 g per pound of body weight (1 to 2g per kg).

Your horse weighs 550 (1200 lb) to 600kg (1300 lb) so the total protein should be between 625g and 1250g. Assuming 20 pounds (9kg) of hay / pasture per day at 10% protein, this will yield 2 pounds (907g) of protein. But then multiply the hay / pasture protein by 50% bioavailability and the net good quality protein intake is 450g.

SBM has an 80% bioavailability.

80% of 157.5g of the full fat SBM = 126g

80% of 105.75g SBM = 85g

Adding these to the 450g from hay / pasture = 576g or 535g. This is less than minimum.

Q2 – Has anyone else, whose horse is also very sensitive to a variety of feeds, noted increased biting and scratching on the high protein soya. If so, what was your solution? >>>I have seen the opposite when adequate amounts of protein are fed over 6 months to a year.

Going back to this months “Rounds With Doc T” about the Skin Of Horses, there are reports of horses on an adequate amount of high quality protein no longer being affected by fly sensitivity. It may take over a year to get the full effect but after one winter on adequate protein there should be an improvement. As you have stated here, the amount you are feeding has improved her mane, tail, hair coat, hooves and muscling. But repairing the skin and restoring the immune system seems to take longer.

I know you are in the middle of summer so understand that increasing SBM now may not show evidence of effectiveness until next summer. Be patient. Also avoid the full fat SBM as the fat may be inflammatory to the gut (assuming the same happens in humans).

The neck thread worms have larvae that are killed with ivermectin. However, the adults are the ones migrating in the neck causing the ripples and hard nodules. Ivermectin and other anti-parasitic drugs don’t kill these. But guess what does – the immune system. So build back the immune system by decreasing inflammation and increasing the high quality proteins.

One last comment about the trauma of the falling tree. I am in the middle of a podcast today of a psychologist who deals with trauma based psychosis in humans and I thought of all the horses who have been traumatized (acute and chronic). Trauma leads to a lowered self esteem / self worth which I see in so many horses. In fact one of the ways I get to engage with so many different and difficult horses is by giving each horse a sense of self worth – just for the moment. They feel they are understood for the time I am in there. The next time you ride past a fallen tree check what your body is telling the horse. Be the leader at this time by doing what leaders do best – empower those around them to be more than they think they can be through increasing their self worth / confidence. See the blog “Coaching Versus Cheerleading.

Oh, and researchers are now learning that the vagus nerve (the tenth cranial nerve) is NOT a one way instructional nerve from the brain to the viscera including the GI tract but actually a two way communication highway. In fact it probably moves more FROM the gut TO the brain. Or more specifically from the gut’s microbiome to the brain. We are learning so much but have so far to go.

We all look forward to hearing your updates.

[DinahC]

An update on Praline…

Changes I’ve noted since starting on the Grain free diet.

Apart from the main changes already reported by many of the converts ;D, these are additional changes I’ve noted during the past 6 weeks.

~Praline is no longer suffering from anhydrosis. I see clear signs of sweating during lazy days at pasture on our hot summer days.

~ she is loving being hosed down. In the past, she absolutely hated even being sponged down let alone hosing, even on a hot hot day. Now she stands under the hose willingly and even has it sprinkling on her neck. Not sure about her face yet.

~ general willingness to run and even join in play in the field, something she never chose to do in the past.

~ she is more present in the moment, interested in what’s going on around her, generally walks carrying her head higher but relaxed. I feel proud is a nice way to describe it.

~She now rolls completely over, from L to R and back again. This is something she never did before. She used to go down and roll on the one side and get up and occasionally go down and roll on the other. Often she would only roll on the one side and not bother with the other!

~she just looks clean. She never used to look clean even after being groomed. That’s definitely not the case anymore. And she’s got a lovely shine as well.

~ she’s willingly walking in thicker, heavier going. In the past she would duck off to the side of the path and look for the firmest ground to walk on.

~ as an unfit horse, she managed an in-hand walk up the mountain better than her fitter 9 years younger friend. It was her companions owner who noted that her horse was more out of breath than Praline. Her horse is not on the Grain Free diet.

~ when bridling her, she is no longer nipping at my tummy. This was something that she’s done for years and years and years. I have tried to train it away, tried various techniques to bridle her but it never helped. But now that “bad habit” has gone.

~ when going through gates, on turning to close the gate behind us, her inside hind leg naturally steps under in the turn as against stepping back. So the flow of the turn is smoother and more graciousful. I feel that this indicates a more comfortable gut so that naturally suggests to me that she could do better movements in work, eg. Higher level Dr movements, or sharper turns in a jump off and likely the quick turns needed in many of the western sports (ha ha… She’s not a western horse! ) where horses are running against the clock.

I continue everyday to watch and observe for small improvements that are yielding big returns in my opinion.

As for her rubbing, I am more am more convinced that now that I have stripped her diet down to literally the SBM without any added herbs, the rubbing is directly anxiety related. I continue to monitor her response to different scenarios, but the rubbing and itching is definately reduced and even not at all some days. For the record, I have put her back on a homeopathic anxiety tablet again and I have noted a direct correlation between adding to diet and reduced rubbing.